Made a USA definition...

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chunter
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Made a USA definition...

Post by chunter »

I made a USA definition over the past couple of nights that takes certain events into account (San Jose moved and New York changed its name when it was sold) and also includes the USL system and the US Open Cup (think English FA cup with amateurs and semi-pros, more byes for the pros, and less prestige.)

At the time I was trying to think of a way to code Mexico, but their system is a little bit to weird, more on that later.

The definition is far from perfect, because bygfoot isn't designed for the kind of regional division/conference structures used in sports in the USA, so I decided to focus a little more on what I can define instead of what I can't.

The US Open Cup is a knockout tournament, one match, no replays. The poorer team is usually given the home advantage to prevent issues regarding a Virginia Beach U23's side from having to travel to Los Angeles to play the Galaxy at Home Depot Center, and in fact, MLS venues usually don't get matches until the very end, if at all.

The first set of matches are play-ins for amateur teams, then come the U23 development sides, then gradually, the semi-pro teams are introduced, the pro USL sides, the MLS sides that failed to make playoffs last year, and then finally, the rest of MLS, all over the course of some five or six weeks. (I'll have to re-read the chart).

I wish there was a way to 'name' the cup rounds, because aside from the play-in rounds (two matches!) being called the 'Last 512', it all works quite beautifully.

I coded US Open rounds at three weeks apart for simplicity, but I also wish there was a way to change the interval, or create a 'week off' before a final. (The real competition schedules matches for whenever they can get the teams to show up, so matches are farther apart as it progresses.)

I made up a playoff format for the USL systems, because while they always seem to have playoffs, they don't publish the format on their website and I get the feeling they change the criterea annually. I suppose I can correct it if someone has more information, or once the actual playoff takes place, if there is one.

There is no formal promotion/relegation system in the United States because it is presumed that pro and semi-pro sides could not afford the task. The difference in investment in a First Division USL side and an MLS side is astronomical. That doesn't mean that teams don't get juggled around the divisions every year, but that's more business and logistics than promotion or relegation, (that is, it's about money, not competition.) I'm experimenting to see what financial effect being 'stuck' at one level has on maintaining a team for the long term.

Bygfoot handled a definition with 14 leagues and 11 cups rather flawlessly, showing it's a very powerful program,

I find it interesting that it's probably quite possible to create preseason and midseason friendlies as "invisible cups",

I've left off the North American Football Confederation (old CONCACAF) tournaments on purpose, part because I don't know enough about how they work, and part because I think they change the rules for them every year anyway.

Let me know if you want me to send the definition (and how) and ask if you want links regarding the aforementioned competitions.

I'll put the Mexico rant in another post.

Best wishes
gyboth
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Post by gyboth »

first of all, i'm very happy you devoted your time to fiddling with the definitions, since that's the part of the game i'm most proud of and most keen on improving.

i don't have the energy to comment on your posts right now, since i've got influenza, but your ideas seem interesting and some of them are probably worth implementing. i'll write some more later.

you can send the definition(s) you made to gyboth bygfoot com, i'll have a look at them.

gyözö
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gyboth
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Re: Made a USA definition...

Post by gyboth »

i'm feeling a bit better now, so it's time for a few comments ;-)
chunter wrote:The US Open Cup is a knockout tournament, one match, no replays. The poorer team is usually given the home advantage to prevent issues regarding a Virginia Beach U23's side from having to travel to Los Angeles to play the Galaxy at Home Depot Center, and in fact, MLS venues usually don't get matches until the very end, if at all.
this isn't implemented, but i think it should be. if i recall correctly, at one point it even was, but i'm not sure in which version and why it was removed.
I wish there was a way to 'name' the cup rounds, because aside from the play-in rounds (two matches!) being called the 'Last 512', it all works quite beautifully.
it wouldn't be too hard to add names for cup rounds, but i'd also like to keep the definition system simple (or maybe i should say as simple as possible), and since this particular property isn't very important, let's postpone it.
I coded US Open rounds at three weeks apart for simplicity, but I also wish there was a way to change the interval, or create a 'week off' before a final. (The real competition schedules matches for whenever they can get the teams to show up, so matches are farther apart as it progresses.)
this is a nice idea. i should implement it.
I find it interesting that it's probably quite possible to create preseason and midseason friendlies as "invisible cups",
what do you mean by 'invisible'?
I'll put the Mexico rant in another post.
i'll copy/paste it here, it'll be simpler to discuss in one thread.
Before the tournament, the 18 teams are blind-drawn into three groups of six. Three group winners, three runners up, and two 'highest point not in yet' wildcards are seeded into a quarterfinal knockout bracket, played in home-away legs. The final is a single match.
this sounds doable.
The team with the lowest standings points in the league phase is eligible for relegation
no problem, i think.
It'd be easy enough to make a round robin by borrowing from the Argentina definition, and it's easy enough to make a playoff at the end of the year, but the rest is... difficult.
i'd say you can forget the argentina definition. it only consists of an alibi-league, so that the south-american definitions can have argentinian teams in the international cups.
While it's possible to define groups in a cup format, right now it's impossible to define a country with no league. The other issue is that the teams in a group will only have games against the teams in that group, whereas the Mexican format has every team play every team once.
the first problem is easy to solve, just define all teams in a league (or more than one, you decide) and set the league to inactive (<active>0<active> in the xml file). have a look at the wc06 definition to see how it works.

like this, you can access the teams from the leagues and let them play in cups, but the league itself is invisible in the game. (btw, i just realised that this tag is missing from the docs :oops:)

as for the second problem, maybe i could introduce a feature so that in a round robin stage, all teams play each other once or twice. but the system used in the nhl, for instance, is much too special.
(And a little off the subject, the ability to create 'breaks' in a league would make Japan's format possible and some European formats, specifically ones with winter pauses, more realistic.)
yes, this one's worth implementing, too, i guess.

gyözö
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chunter
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Post by chunter »

it wouldn't be too hard to add names for cup rounds, but i'd also like to keep the definition system simple (or maybe i should say as simple as possible), and since this particular property isn't very important, let's postpone it.
I'm starting to think of workarounds, like smaller 'entry' cups that I know are already implemented, so no trouble there.

I'd implement it by having each new <round> pair having a <name> inside it, but I agree it's a small and superficial change. The 'breaks in the league' thing is a superficial, low-priority change too, but if you get to it, please consider the notion of scheduling two matches per week when the cups schedules aren't busy as well.
i'd say you can forget the argentina definition. it only consists of an alibi-league, so that the south-american definitions can have argentinian teams in the international cups.
I'll let you know when I'm done writing one then, it can't be that difficult because of...
the first problem is easy to solve, just define all teams in a league (or more than one, you decide) and set the league to inactive (<active>0<active> in the xml file). have a look at the wc06 definition to see how it works.

like this, you can access the teams from the leagues and let them play in cups, but the league itself is invisible in the game. (btw, i just realised that this tag is missing from the docs
I noticed it the day after I made the post and figured I'd bring it up if somebody else didn't first.

Argentina can probably be defined as two cups with only a one-group round robin phase.

Mexico will be a bit more difficult- again, the issue is getting the teams from group 1 playing the teams in groups 2 and 3 as well, and still having it count in the standings.

I'm not sure why I got on the big creative streak, wanting to play with stuff I took for granted just a while ago, but while I'm at it if anybody has things that they want me to try or share, let me know.

Best wishes
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